Season 3, Ep. 15 – Software as healthcare, with Sunny Atwal, Head of Engineering, Luminopia
What started as an interest in “serious gaming” eventually led Sunny Atwal to Luminopia, where he serves as the Head of Engineering. Luminopia uses virtual reality tech to treat neural visual disorders in children, receiving their FDA approval in October of 2021. Today, he talks with Faith about the tech behind the treatment, the process of attaining FDA approval, and when AI will be smart enough to know which device your Bluetooth headphones should be using.
(THE FRONTIER THEME PLAYS)
I got these for free on an airplane one time, and I was like, “I’m just going back to the old wired headphones,” (Sunny: <Laugh>.) you know, they’re trusty. You know if they’re broken, ‘cause they’re just, nothing happens. And then you, you get a new pair. (Sunny: Yeah.) The Bluetooth always fails me.
I feel like we were kind of forced into the Bluetooth realm when they got rid of the headphones jack (Faith: Yes.) on cell phones, and I resisted for as long as I possibly could. And now that we’re in this Bluetooth world, every meeting I’m in, I’m just constantly changing devices, and there’s always a bit of setup. Whoever fixes that issue correctly is gonna be a billionaire; I’m sure of it.
One-hundred percent, because, you know what, like, you and I…I would assume that you are this person in your family, too. Anytime there’s like, a hardware issue, (Sunny: <Laugh>.) my family assumes, ‘cause I work in tech, they’re like, “Go fix the printer; make my headphones work.” So you would think that you and I would be able to pretty easily figure out how to navigate the Bluetooth headphone world, but if we’re struggling, then you’re totally right. Whoever fixes it, there’s an entire audience of people who are currently not able to use it, so…
Yeah, maybe that would be the next hot AI product, (Faith: <Laugh>.) just knowing what you want to do with your Bluetooth headset. (Faith: Right.) That would be great. Sign me up.
And voice control. Like, “Hey,” <laugh> “I want someone to hear me.” <Laugh> (Sunny: <Laugh>.) Well, Sunny, I think we are gonna go into business together. So that’s, we could probably just end this podcast now.
Let’s do it.
<Laugh>. Bill is our editor, so Bill, cut this out so no one steals our idea. We gotta trademark that.
Thanks, Bill <laugh>.
<Laugh>. Sunny Atwal is the head of engineering at Luminopia, and Luminopia is a Gun.io client, but more importantly, tackling a really important mission, which are children’s eye health disorders, and, you know, addressing those. Well, welcome. I’m so excited to meet you. I feel like I’ve, you know, the team has been working with y’all for a while, and I never get to talk with folks one-to-one, so this is exciting.
Yeah. I’ve just had such a positive experience with Gun so far, and everyone’s just been super thoughtful and really collaborative, and I’ve just really appreciated my experience so far. You know, finding good engineering talent is not straightforward. (Faith: Yeah.) Not just finding the talent, like, just the amount of time investment to just do it. You know, when you go through a process, and you don’t get fruit at the end, it can feel a little bit demoralizing, because you spent so much time to get there, (Faith: Right.) and you’ve got other things to do, you know? It’s why you’re hiring in the first place. And one thing I’ve just really appreciated about Gun is just how hands-on you all are and just how easy I feel that the process has become. I like your system. I think even one of your lead designers is reaching out, and we’re gonna have a bit of a UX chat, I think, this week.
Oh, awesome. Oh, that’s awesome.
I never thought I’d ever say this, but I’m “pro-Gun.” (Faith: <Laugh>.) Not that kinda gun, the other kinda Gun.
Thanks for writing my marketing copy for me. (Sunny: <Laugh>.) And this wasn’t meant to be a testimonial, but I really appreciate that. I think it’s kind of like, nobody realized how crappy email was until we had Slack, (Sunny: Yeah.) and it’s kind of the same with technical hiring, where it’s like, we just assume that that’s the pain we have to go through to bear fruit at the end. But you’re totally right; when you’re in a hiring process, especially for engineering talent, where you have to be an engineer, yourself, to hire the right engineer. And if you’re dedicating all this time to hiring, you’re not actually building, and your task list is piling up, and you’re totally right at the end of it, if it doesn’t work out, it’s like, well, screw it. I’ll just do it myself. And nobody likes those periods of work, so yeah. I feel you on that. Well, Sunny, I’m really excited to talk about, you know, what we’re here to discuss, which is what you do on a daily basis. I feel really lucky, because so many of our customers are working on really important mission driven technology, so I’d love to hear, you know, if you wanna give us the rundown of what you’re working on, what you’re building, and we can go from there.
Our company is called Luminopia. We use virtual reality technology to treat neural visual disorders, basically eye and brain or brain through the eye. Our main product, our feature product, treats a neurovisual disorder, known amblyopia, which many people probably know as lazy eye. So maybe when you were a child, or maybe if you have children at home, or friends who have children, you might see some of them wear eye patches. (Faith: Mmm <affirmative>.) Eye patching is the most common way of treating this neurovisual disorder, and what we do is we use virtual reality technology instead of the eye patch to treat this. And instead of wearing the eye patch, they wear the headset, and they watch children’s television shows. We modify the presentation of these children’s television shows uniquely in the left eye and the right eye in a way that has been clinically proven to improve the way in which the brain uses both of these eyes.
It basically rebalances the eyes in a way that is more like what we expect, you know. (Faith: Mmm <affirmative>.) The power of amblyopia is that if you don’t treat it, it gets worse over time. It affects reading comprehension. Even just the idea of wearing the eye patch is, in of itself, an issue when you’re a child in school. (Faith: Right.) So even just removing that as something that is happening in a child’s life is, I think, in of itself, something that’s a benefit, but then also just using both eyes together, as opposed to just using one eye by itself to perform the overall treatment is something that I believe is also pretty novel in what we’re doing with VR. In a nutshell, yeah. We use virtual reality technology to treat neurovisual disorders in children, specifically lazy eye. That’s what we do here. Yeah.
I remember, I have a set of very vivid memories as a child at our home computer, on our dial-up internet, putting in a software disk and having to wear a headset for some sort of eye disorder treatment. Of course, as a child, I didn’t know what it was, but, you know, operating a joystick, there were like, various kind of shades that would go down on this headset. And I was reading about Luminopia, you know, the typical treatment for what’s known as lazy eye, but amblyopia is punishing the dominant eye, right? And Luminopia has a different approach.
That’s right. It’s known as a binocular approach. Two eyes. (Faith: Okay.) Like you said, kind of completely blocking one eye and allowing the amblyoptic eye, the eye that is degrading to do more work in order for the brain to choose to prioritize that eye more in doing the visual processing. (Faith: Mm-hmm <affirmative>.) That’s fundamentally what an eye patch does. What our therapy does is that it uses both eyes to do a similar activity, but because both eyes are involved, it’s more of an integrative treatment. Now, there’s still lots of studies that have to be done to show exactly how much better or specifically what is happening, (Faith: Mm-hmm <affirmative>.) but we’re very optimistic that this is something that people are really gonna drive a lot of benefit from. (Faith: Right.) We have to be very careful in how we describe what is like, how our product works and how it’s like, how it is specifically working.
Because like any medical product, we’re under FDA regulation, (Faith: Mmm <affirmative>.) and we need to make sure that we don’t make false claims. We need to make sure that we make accurate statements. Safety is paramount of course, too, and basically staying within regulation. (Faith: Right.) So we are personally very optimistic that this is gonna be something that’s really gonna impact people’s lives, and we are constantly collecting data and getting feedback from our community of professionals in all sorts of spaces, in particular pediatric ophthalmology, but really just the medical field at large, the technology field at large, virtual reality organizations that can support us with hardware and different types of solutions. It’s a really multifaceted problem space (Faith: Right.) that requires an intersection to run through all of the different types of categories of concern and really unify them to a single solution. So it’s been a really interesting journey. I’ve learned a ton (Faith: <Laugh>.) on just things I never thought I’d ever have to learn, (Faith: I was gonna say.) and this has been really interesting. Yeah.
Hearing you, hearing you talk, I have a friend who was CEO of GoCheck Kids for a long time, which is a like, a diagnostic tool for visual disorders in children, and the way that you’re able to talk about this subject matter makes me assume that you’ve spent your whole life building (Sunny: <Laugh>.) in this vertical, which I assume is not true. So I’d love to hear, how did you find yourself here, and what was that process just like, career development wise, for you to kind of get steeped in this problem space?
Yeah. Well, when I was a kid, I really loved video games, and that slowly but surely led me to computer science and software engineering. Upon graduation, I just got right into video games. I then started to learn about this concept known as serious games. It was called “serious games” then; I think maybe it’s even more broad of a topic now, and maybe we don’t even use that word much anymore. I’ll just keep calling it “serious games.” (Faith: <Laugh>.) Serious games used to say, just to define it, is using game technology for non-game purposes. You know, this time it’s serious, this time it’s, you know, we’re making something “serious,” (Faith: Mmm <affirmative>.) and when I learned that this was even a concept, it kinda blew my mind. You know, I can take this game technology that’s used, like Pac-Man, Mario, and this can be applied to genuinely help someone. Maybe you wanna teach them a new skill.
Maybe they have certain types of like, cognitive impairments where, maybe a safe environment, where they can practice certain skills is beneficial to them. (Faith: Mmm <affirmative>.) Maybe they’re not able to experience things that would be beneficial to experience, and we can do that with technology. Once I learned that this was something that even existed, there was no going back for me. I moved more into, what I’ll continue to call, the “serious game space.” The first thing I did, this for a company in Montreal, it was a physical rehab video game, where basically we gamified physical rehab, and we collected analytics that was beneficial for insurance companies and hospitals to basically ensure that the treatment was working, (Faith: Cool.) making sure that people were compliant with the treatment, but also engaged. And one thing that I loved about this, is when people were doing traditional therapy, they were very conscious of the pain that they felt when they were going through the therapy.
And I just, one of the things I just love to learn about this product, and what really continued to make sure, tell me that this was a meaningful endeavor, was that pain was demonstrably less, like, it was measured on a like, lower when they were playing games. Which kinda intuitively makes sense; if you’re distracted with a video game, you’re not as focused on your pain as you would be if you’re just in a white wall room doing body squats, (Faith: Right.) you know? And just, that was one of the first things I built in the serious games arena and just continued to just reinforce this idea that this was something meaningful. After that I moved into virtual reality technology, in general. This was something that was beginning to get more and more popular back in like, 2015, 2016. Worked on some other VR products there, some in healthcare, some just in training, maybe in soft skill training. Like, just having conversations with virtual humans practicing social skills that maybe were not, people weren’t comfortable doing.
That was definitely interesting. And yeah, that eventually brought me to Luminopia. When I heard about what Luminopia was building, it really genuinely blew my mind, again, for the second time, (Faith: Mmm <affirmative>.) because this kind of crossed over now into that neuralvisual. This wasn’t something that was experiential, or something that was maybe just conversational. This was something that was specifically clinical, and that was just, that was very fascinating to me, and it was based on hard science. And I really wanted to just dive into that and understand it as best as I could, as someone who isn’t traditionally a scientist, just seeing how much I could learn and understand about this space that’s really just evolving. (Faith: Mmm <affirmative>.) The category is known as “digital therapeutics.” I think digital therapeutics has a lot of growth potential in the future, and I feel like a lot of the problems that we’re solving now are problems that we’re solving in the digital therapeutic space. So I feel like there’s a long way to go. A lot of the things that we’re gonna learn over the next few years, I think, are gonna help a lot of other digital therapeutics companies cut their teeth in the industry, and I’m just very optimistic in terms of the new products that will come out, not just in neurovisual disorders with amblyopia, but really anything (Faith: Yeah.) where traditional video game technology can be used to help people in new and novel ways. I think there’s just so much to do there.
It’s interesting, because it sounds like, in any kind of company in the digital therapeutics category, there’s going to be a really interesting sector crossover, obviously, between technology and healthcare. And what’s interesting about Luminopia is you’re crossing over into many more sectors than just, you know, healthcare and technology. You’ve got media partners that you’re navigating, obviously, complex algorithms, virtual reality, and so I’d love to hear your take on what it’s like to design and develop in that space. How do you navigate such a wide array of sectors that you’re building in?
Collaboration is key. Getting the right people involved who, in their own respects, in their own particular category of expertise are, you know, very proficient, very experienced, but no one really, truly has experience across the entire spectrum of what we specifically do. It’s just too many things. (Faith: Mmm <affirmative>.) So we try to get the best people involved, and we work on ways to collaborate with them and then remain flexible as much as we can, too, in what we build. We need to be able to hear different perspectives. Perspectives that I’ve personally never heard before, as maybe someone who’s an engineer, traditionally. Working with someone who’s more scientifically focused or more regulatory focused is something that isn’t obvious to me, (Faith: Mmm <affirmative>.) but our collaboration is critical, in order to deliver a product that checks all the boxes the FDA approves, that we can give out, give to the public, and ultimately help people.
So I think communication is critical, getting the right people involved who have the right expertise is critical, and remaining flexible. (Faith: Mmm <affirmative>.) Where this assumption that I had about how something should be done, when I only get to think about it in my particular area, is not gonna be beneficial for a solution like this. (Faith: Right.) You need to be flexible. You need to, okay, I need to concede on this point in order to achieve this new thing that doesn’t exist yet. And how do we balance all of the concerns? You know what’s paramount, our North Star, I would say, is regulatory. At the end of the day, if we’re not compliant, we don’t get out. So we start there, but then there’s other compliance issues, too, that are not strictly medical. There’s cybersecurity. You know, how do we make sure that we store data safely?
How do we make sure that we’re doing things securely, you know, using modern encryption standards? Things need to be pleasant, and like, that’s more user experience. Then there’s how we interact with the medical community. That’s more medical affairs. You know, it’s not just a product that we ship out with a form. Doctors are involved, insurance companies are involved, pharmacies are involved, and each of these kind of dots need to be connected and streamlined into an overall process. And people who maybe have no exposure to software development or no exposure to other concepts, they need to be a little bit exposed to it and vice versa. I would say much of our commercialization effort was spent here. You know, (Faith: Mmm <affirmative>.) we had built the product, we got approval from the FDA, and then we released to the public. A lot of the hard work we needed to do, to kind of get it out to the public, was effectively connecting these dots between these different entities of concern. Creating this map, effectively, that allows us to deliver our software, our product really, effectively, safely, in ways that can be covered by insurance companies and are easy for doctors to prescribe. These are just like, super interesting challenges, and (Faith: Yeah.) just, it’s critical to our success. Yeah.
Man, I would love to hear more about that process of going through FDA approval. I’m sure you’ve got some battle stories here, especially with, you know, a product that serves children. What was that process like?
As you can probably imagine, even FDA aside, the fact that we’re talking about children here is particularly sensitive. We wanna make, you know, safety is paramount with any FDA device, but you can imagine with children…it’s just, the bar is, or at least the perceived bar, is even higher. (Faith: Mmm <affirmative>.) So just, getting buy-in from key opinion leaders in the ophthalmology space, key opinion leaders in even the media space, you know, kids have to watch TV shows in this app. What kind of TV shows can they watch? You know, are those, you know, what are the interesting intersections between FDA regulation and a VR device? Content. Figuring out how to wrangle all of these separate concerns together in a document that can be presented to the FDA for approval. That’s a challenge. I would say, also, we needed to go through various efficacy studies, various safety studies.
Specifically, we went through two open label studies and a randomized control trial involving more than 200 children. The clinical trials took place in 23 clinics and hospitals around the US and we worked closely with our medical professionals in order to make sure things were safe and were measured correctly, all the findings are public and is basically just public domain knowledge, just like how any scientific journal effectively becomes. (Faith: Mmm <affirmative>.) We’ve worked with Boston Children’s Hospital, Johns Hopkins, and the Cleveland Clinic, also, in order to, you know, collaborate with their doctors, work with their patients. And even to this day, when we are in a commercial phase, when we’re, you know, we actually have patients and are actually working with kids right now, they continue to be our partners. So they’ve really been with us the entire way, and they’ve been really helping us with these types of FDA concerns and helping us navigate that complicated arena.
It is a very interesting kind of topic where a lot of what, a lot of what is going to happen, I think, over time, is right now, it’s very flexible, (Faith: Mmm <affirmative>.) and as long as we show that we’re making strong efforts to do the right thing, we kind of help define what future digital therapeutic companies will be scrutinized by. (Faith: Oh.) We are kinda setting the standard, I guess, is what I’m trying to say, ‘cause there is no standard for a digital therapeutic that treats neurovisual disorders in children. We’re the first. (Faith: Mmm <affirmative>.) So from an FDA perspective, we need to kind of relate that to other things that are analogous to that and be regulated and defined by those things. That doesn’t always work. So we blaze new trails; we work with the FDA to really make sure that those are safely defined and carefully defined.
And when they are defined, they become the standard for other therapeutics who come later. So a lot of it is really just defining these processes, too, that are just, (Faith: Right.) we need to tell the FDA, for example, what VR headset we use to deliver our treatment. So we need to talk about just like, things that maybe you would never even imagine matter about VR headsets. (Faith: Yeah.) Like, how heavy is the VR headset? Is it too heavy? What does too heavy mean? Is it too hot? How do we measure heat (Faith: Mmm <affirmative>.) on this device? What is too hot? Lenses that, you know, people see through the headset. What is a good lens? What is a bad lens? How do we make sure that the lens doesn’t impede treatment? How do we measure these things? How do we make sure that we don’t regress in our treatment? If new headsets come out, we wanna use that headset. How do we make sure that headset doesn’t regress in any of those three things that I just mentioned? This is a back and forth with the FDA and other key opinion leaders and subject matter experts, and there isn’t any clear definition, because it’s so new. (Faith: Mmm <affirmative>.) So it’s something that we need to help find, which is a challenge, in of itself. But again, very exciting, because it’s an opportunity for us to blaze that trail.
Right. That was, I feel like somebody could consolidate what you just said and write a playbook for <laugh>, (Sunny: <Laugh>.) you know, how to approach the team that you need. That was really insightful and tactical. I appreciate it. I wanna dig into something that you started to uncover, which is the unique challenges of developing for a VR headset. Most of us, when we’re writing software, we’re doing it for a computer, and there’s a set of just, widely accepted operating systems functionality that we can expect to be true on the hardware that our software will run on. When it comes to VR headsets, I would assume that’s a lot different, right? It’s new, there might be a moving target, and I think an area that’s particularly challenging is like, how do you futureproof your software, assuming that there will be change in the hardware? So I’d love to hear your experience, or what are some of the challenges you’ve run into with developing for VR headsets?
I would say we’ve been very fortunate. We’re in these modern times of just, a variety of services, (Faith: Mmm <affirmative>.) and I would say, agnostic tools. It’s something that allows developers, who maybe decades ago, like, you know, expected very slow iteration. We’re now in the realm, I believe, of like, rapid iteration of technology. We can, developers can rapidly iterate on solutions and like, basically bring their ideas to life faster than ever. However, when you take this approach, you tend to get married to a platform or a selection of services. And these services ultimately own you, or they own the stack (Faith: Mmm <affirmative>.) you built quickly, but the stack kind of owns you. (Faith: Right.) You can’t leave the stack that blessed you with these superpowers of fast development. So I would say, balancing this concern is like, one of the hardest things that I think I see a lot of modern development companies struggle with.
How do we maintain ownership over what we’re building, while still being able to benefit from the speed of iteration of like modern technology and agnostic technology? I would say how we strike this balance is we’ve tried to own as much of our technology stack as possible to remain, to keep that flexibility in place, and then when we need to rely on certain types of platforms, ‘cause frankly, I think nowadays, there really doesn’t exist any technology that doesn’t rely on some platform at some level. (Faith: Right.) Those platforms, we try to build deep relationships with; we try to make sure that they understand our needs and, as much as they can even allow us some room to be customized, understanding that ultimately, we’re providing some social good here. I would say our most important partners have absolutely followed through on that, and understand our mission, and frankly have been amazing. (Faith: Mmm <affirmative>.) Just really grateful to have the partners that we have in helping us deliver our product.
And think, just outside of that, just really owning our stack. Owning our stack in a way where if the, you know, if certain technology giants rise and fall, we can remain resilient in a way where we don’t rise and fall with them, (Faith: Mmm <affirmative>.) without us really having an ability to respond and remaining agnostic. Like one philosophy that we’ve kind of maintained here is that we can run on almost any VR headset. This is almost by design. (Faith: Mmm <affirmative>.) That doesn’t mean that we are going to run on every VR headset, because the headset, in particular, may not conform to certain regulatory standards, but that’s something that we can always have conversations about in the future. We can say, “Hey, this new headset came out. Let’s talk about whether or not it fits the bill,” and if it does, fantastic. Our technology, we can bring that into the conversation, and we don’t have to rebuild.
Rebuilding is not something (Faith: <Laugh>.) that we wanna go through, because that…it took us years to get here, you know. Regulation, regulatory with the FDA, just iteration on various parts. We wanna be able to bring what we have forward into the future. So yeah, we’ve been very fortunate to have the right mindset. Even many years ago, when we built the technology to have this agnostic mindset in terms of VR devices, while simultaneously maintaining flexibility and not being specifically married. (Faith: Right.) It might sound a bit counterintuitive, but I think you can do both; you just don’t do it in every single area. I think on the VR headset, we remain agnostic, and then we have a lot of backend cloud technology that supports our VR headset, like the way that we collect patient data in order to understand how treatment is being done.
We do this in a very compliant way. (Faith: Mmm <affirmative>.) We own that like, completely. And that’s something that’s important for us to own. When you get more to the VR headset, we’re more agnostic. We’re able to leverage very modern day game engine technologies and technology platforms that support like, kinda like a one-to-many solution. You kinda build your code once, and once you build that code once, it can support like, quite literally hundreds of devices. And this allows us to kind of balance this like, again, agnosticism on the hardware, but proprietary kind of ownership of our therapeutic algorithm and other types of like, web services that all kinda live in the backend.
Yeah, I hadn’t thought about the importance of those kind of technical partnerships, but that makes a lot of sense. And on the other side, to be successful, there’s a whole slew of non-technical partnerships that are important to Luminopia, and I know you’re a sponsor of the AAPOS conference coming up at the end of the month, which is exciting. So I’d love to hear about Luminopia’s approach to drawing feedback out of non-technical communities and partners, and how that helps to shape the growth of the product.
AAPOS <spoken phonetically> is really a meeting of the minds for pediatric ophthalmology. Pediatric ophthalmology is one of the most important categories of feedback that we receive. (Faith: Mmm <affirmative>.) You know, this is the community that we engage the most with. They’re the doctors. They’re the technicians that treat eye disorders in children, even in adults. They’re boots on the ground. Them understanding our products, such that they can give us feedback, is absolutely critical. You know, otherwise, we could be building in a black box that we don’t really understand what’s happening. (Faith: Right.) Ultimately, what matters is our kids getting better. Do doctors see the benefit? Is everything we’re doing matching the science? Is there new science to be done to help us better understand what’s happening? We’re not doing the science; these folks are doing the science. So their collaboration is important. At AAPOS <spoken phonetically>, we’re going be collaborating very deeply with these experts and sharing knowledge, doing talks.
They’ll be listening to us; we’ll be listening to them. It’ll be very collaborative. (Faith: Mmm <affirmative>.) They’ll get to try our product, mostly for the first time, for a lot of them, and we expect a lot of feedback. We expect to learn a lot, and hopefully, we have something to teach them, too, and just…I’m excited as someone who feels outside of this community, as an engineer, to learn from them and to just, understand their perspectives a bit better. I think ultimately their collaboration makes our product better in the long term. Understanding their concerns, understanding how we can shape the product more to meet their nuanced needs, not just in treatment, but how, you know, those different dots and the lines that we connect in order, you know, to do the entire flow from pharmacy to the hospital or the doctor’s clinic. How data gets passed, how data should get stored, what kinda forms, and documents, and types of insurance claim codes to use. There’s so many different types of areas of concern, and these really are the people who help us best understand this landscape. So I’m very much looking forward to the event. I will be there, and I’m looking forward to like, learning from the community. Yeah.
That’s awesome. I’m not in any of these sectors, (Sunny: <Laugh>.) and I think you’ve convinced me that I also wanna go to this event <laugh>, so I appreciate that. Sunny, this has been really illuminating, I think, both from just a general understanding of Luminopia and the problem that you’re solving, but also I wasn’t expecting so much tactical advice for other folks who are building in your space. So I hope listeners find that valuable. If somebody’s listening and they want to get in touch with you or Luminopia, where can they find you?
Yeah, thank you. So we can be reached at luminopia.com. (THE FRONTIER THEME FADES IN) L-U-M-I-N-O-P-I-A. I hope I spelled that right. (Faith: I think you did.) Luminopia.com. I think I did, (Faith: <Laugh>.) yeah. Luminopia.com and reach out to me directly at [email protected]. If you’re a digital therapeutic, and you’re looking to just talk to a fellow product in the space, if you are interested in just the space in general, reach out. We can grab a coffee, a virtual coffee, whatever makes sense.
Awesome. I really appreciate it. It’s been awesome chatting, and hopefully we’ll be able to connect again soon.
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